Sergey - Purely Technical Support Question, Please Help.

[deesto]

i forgot to mention that if you do all this you should have both the original song and my "chorded" version playing at the same time in sync in your same sequencer. it's 00:30GMT the 9th of aug. so the webpage will be availble after this time in an hour 01:30GMT.

once you both receive the files (or just you landphil, if sergey could be understandb;y too busy) then i should probably take this page down to respect the artist (c). Just let me know when you are done with it . I think that to post you the full song instead of the bits was better because then you can see how the midi/RG thing syncs exactly with the real song and so i can talk to you in bars or whatever (music sections, etc.) rather than in more vague terms.

in addition, i also forgot to mention that because the song slips out of time (natural perfomance of the players) every now and again some chords may sound a little bit off time vs. the real song. this is ok, this is just me not having enough time to polish it all and so as to respect the sync all the way through rather than quantise all the way through.

I'm sure you would have figured this one out. But if you are in 80bpm like the general midi file is, you will note that you will need to offset the mp3 song by about +2 bars compared to that of the midi track in your sequencer.
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[deesto]

part III. the list as promised :

this list refers to the chords played by the first main chords guitar (CHORDS kbd mode, 3rd midi track)

-Gb7sus4 (bar#4 & of course bar#8 )
-bar#14, i just could not get this chord at all so i reckoned it was close to a Gb7sus4 + Gbm9
-the same as for the first chord in bar#15, either that or i couldn't find a cord in RG at all that matched exactly
-bar#18 which micht be the same problem as bars#4&8
-the second chord in bar#20
-bar#31 & 36 that Gbm7 chord . although in bar 36 has a much closer resemblance to that of the song's.
-bars #43 & 44 i couldn't get a chord that matched... maybe my ears were tired here so maybe in this instance i cannot blame RG
-bar # 46 & 49 i could not work out what chords are these that they play there, can you?
-bars51 onwards is of course all the same, just a chorus with a choir and inspirations going on top of these. and i did not mention the middle of the song which has also a section which resembles to that of bar 51 onwards and to that of bar 0 until bar 13.

cool, so this is it. not very many in this list, i thought there were more (the song repeats itself quiet a few times i guess)... but the ones that i cannot close match them are really frustrating cus they are soo nice guitar chords .
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[Landphil]

deesto,

Got 'em. Having a listen now . . . .

Phil

[deesto]

hey, phil, fantastic!

it's so good of you to do this m8 . Many thanks, I really apreciate you going through all this trouble!
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[deesto]

yup, me again. just found out that the list i have given you is in reference to that of the midi tracks (the first chord) starting at bar1. So the mp3 original song/file should therefore start at two beats into bar0 (or two 80bpm beats BEFORE bar1).

So basically forget about what i had just said muh earlier above because that was absolute nonsense. This was:

"""I'm sure you would have figured this one out. But if you are in 80bpm like the general midi file is, you will note that you will need to offset the mp3 song by about +2 bars compared to that of the midi track in your sequencer."""

sorry about that. so my list is therefore still correct/accurate in terms of positioning if following this new correction here .
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[Landphil]

Holy sh*t, deesto! It's a good thing you picked a song with a simple chord progression!


(Sergey, can we get a better "razz" and "laughing" emoticon? The razz looks like a smile, and the laughing looks like an embarassed person who just farted in an elevator! :-p)



First, I must say that this style of music is somthing I rarely listen to. However, I am in awe over some of the guitar chords and techniques these musicians can pull off. It's a demanding style!

Flew the midi and mp3 (converted to .wav) into Cubase and set up the guitars per your instructions. Good sync job (after I chopped the hi hat intro!)
I think you've done an exellent job in matching the chords. I'm sure it took a good deal of work, so I raise a beer and toast your efforts! I'm not sure that chord mode will do this song justice. Some of his chords go from full 6 string strum to a 2 string pluck, then a 4 string arpeggio followed by a 3 string slow strum. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know after working on this song

Your chord changes match very well with the song, but RG in chord mode seemed to diminish the relaxed, fluid feeling of the original piece (I did have quantize disabled) Each chord is always a full 6 strings. You obviously know keyboards to some degree to figure out all those chord changes, so can I ask why you don't just work out the "extreme" chord parts in solo mode? Yes, it would be more difficult, but I think the end result would be worth it. Some of the chord inversions used in this piece can't be done in chord mode. One of the chords I picked out was an Aadd9 with an F above the E, played with a G bassline. I don't even know what to call that chord . . . G augmented somthing? Of course, you know that you can still strum in solo mode using the C2-D2 keys, which in most cases can be triggered by your left pinky finger while holding out the chord. A bit stretchy, I know.

We both realize that RG chord mode as it is now doesn't have every chord known to exist on the entire fretboard of an actual guitar. That would be massive! I wonder if anybody has calculated the # of chords and inversions possible on a guitar? I just sat my acoustic in my lap facing up and configured a chord ala Jeff Healy style that I couldn't play on the keyboard ( E B G B G E . . . too spread out! It's just an Em, but an odd inversion) There's a LOT of chord possibilities! Not all are practical to use, but they exist on an actual guitar just the same. I would guess that RG could have 1000 chord possibilities, and somewhere, someone would find a chord not included.

As best as I can guess, bar #46 hits a Amaj7 (A E G# C#). . . then a G#dim (G# B D) to a C#min9 (C# G# B C# E) I'm unable to get a plain G#dim in chord mode without a 7th being added.

Bar #49. . . I don't know what to call it . . . seems to be an F# with a D note pulloff while the bass note is A#. As for the other chords you mentioned, an exact match in chord mode isn't going to happen in my opinion. as far as the current RG version goes.


I hope I kept my notes straight! I dont want to throw you off. Since I don't know this song as well as you, I'm sorta guessing. It seems that you may have a better grasp on these chord types than I do, if your MIDI file is any example! I'm basically a rocker that likes to wander in different directions now and then, but I've never wandered into the Flaminco/Spanish/Latin style yet, although I once did a mock calypso tune!

To summarize my rambling post. . . .
I think the chord work you've done so far is great. Some of the chords and inversions in the song just don't exist in Real Guitar chord mode at this moment, but they CAN still be played in other modes. I can tell you're a bit of a perfectionist like me, and that's good. But somtimes I think the feel of the song is more important than performing an exact, note for note copy. From what I heard in your MIDI file, you're close enough that if I were in an audience listening to you perform this piece, I wouldn't notice if you had to use a different inversion of a chord instead of the exact one. I'd just be feelin' the groove!

Apologies if my bar 46-49 chord guesses are wrong. I don't feel that I've really helped you in any way, but I enjoyed listening to your guitar parts while the actual song was playing! I think you've got a good grasp on things. Give solo mode a shot while playing fast upward arpeggios for the harder strummed chords. Good exercise for the hands!

Keep up the good work, and next time, how about somthing a bit easier....like "Lark's Tongue" by King Crimson?

Later on, mate!

Phil


P.S. . . I can't type worth a sh*t, so these longer posts take me a bit of time. Sorry if I repeat myself throughout the post, but it's only because it's taken so long to type to the end, I can't remember what I typed at the beginning!

[deesto]

hey phil, howdy mate?

"P.S. . . I can't type worth a sh*t, so these longer posts take me a bit of time. Sorry if I repeat myself throughout the post, but it's only because it's taken so long to type to the end, I can't remember what I typed at the beginning!"

1)...and you think I'm any better at writing proper english? (*sigh* those smileys... )

"I don't feel that I've really helped you in any way"

2)Ok, let's take it step by step. I do not know what you mean? if doing all this work, syncing, grabing a guitar, etc. is not helping me... then what will be?

3)Well, regarding the skills of the musicians, there you go, "Ketama" for you

"Good sync job (after I chopped the hi hat intro!)"

4)I'm surprised you didn't manage to chop my freaking drums as well...er... Anyhow, I'm glad this was all an easy process for you to do/sync. Although i wouldn't call it a good sync job , more like a very rough and ready one

"Some of his chords go from full 6 string strum to a 2 string pluck, then a 4 string arpeggio followed by a 3 string slow strum"

5)Yeah, this i could imagine but only to some degree. But, because I'm no guitar player, i could not confirm this whatsoever... what i would be curious to know however, if you reckon the fingering while this is happening (3 strings, 2 strings, chords, etc.) would at all match at times with the RG fingering that this plugin puts (chord mode)?

6)Do you reckon RG could have (or does it already have this?) a CC parameter to alter this #of strings behaviour in real-time, so that this could be programed into specific numbered buttons of a controller?

" I'm not sure that chord mode will do this song justice...but RG in chord mode seemed to diminish the relaxed, fluid feeling of the original piece "

7)Nope, of course it doesn't... yer dead right on that one

"Some of the chord inversions used in this piece can't be done in chord mode"

8)To be honest I think, in essence, this is what i was exactly looking for as an answer or conlcusion to this all... thank you. Again, no guitar player here, so no way i could figure this one out by myself.

"We both realize that RG chord mode as it is now doesn't have every chord known to exist on the entire fretboard of an actual guitar."

9)But do you reckon this is at all possible with a little extra programming? Or should it be something i have to forget about it and loose all hope that one day or year will get there?

"You obviously know keyboards to some degree to figure out all those chord changes, so can I ask why you don't just work out the "extreme" chord parts in solo mode?"

10)I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Do you mean to figure out the chords in solo mode and strumm them accordingly in that mode? (indeed to some degree... but not to the degree i would like it to be... i have spent many days figuring them out... so i reckon i'm not that good at it, mate )

"One of the chords I picked out was an Aadd9 with an F above the E, played with a G bassline. I don't even know what to call that chord"

11)Which bar is this in? Please tell me.

"Of course, you know that you can still strum in solo mode using the C2-D2 keys, which in most cases can be triggered by your left pinky finger while holding out the chord. A bit stretchy, I know."

12)Actually now that you say this... i think i might have know this after I had read the manual but completely forgotten about it afterwards . So it is a good reminder. Still, though, the problem i will hit with this is that there are chords that i will never be able to play them in realt-ime with the RG plugin... because of the stretch or the need of two full hands...? or because my keyboard skills are not sound.

"As best as I can guess, bar #46 hits a Amaj7 (A E G# C#). . . then a G#dim (G# B D) to a C#min9 (C# G# B C# E) I'm unable to get a plain G#dim in chord mode without a 7th being added."

13)I will try this a little later on and tell you how i get on. This is amazing work you've done mate! The problem you are having "I'm unable to get a plain G#dim in chord mode without a 7th being added" is again one of those things which i was hoping for you to say or encounter... it's all within the relevant topic . So of course we may not be able to ask for all of this now from musiclab/RG but i reckon that with every update they could start to think about expanding the "chord database recognition system" step-by-step somehow, like this we could get there eventually in the future? Phil, do you think this would be a good idea or a way to proceed?

" I'm sorta guessing. It seems that you may have a better grasp on these chord types than I do, if your MIDI file is any example! "

14)I'm not entirely sure what you mean here? i do not know what you mean that i have better grasp, do I? more than you? nah, don't think so?

"I can tell you're a bit of a perfectionist like me, and that's good."

15) I have to agree with you on that one , whether this is a good thing or not to be

"Apologies if my bar 46-49 chord guesses are wrong. "

16) either way mate. Your guesses there have to be much better than mine.

"Give solo mode a shot while playing fast upward arpeggios for the harder strummed chords"

17) Phil, I do not know what you mean here either. Can you explain how am I to do this? How can i do fast upward arpeggios? Can you give a bar#s section example?


"Keep up the good work, and next time, how about somthing a bit easier....like "Lark's Tongue" by King Crimson?"

1 Well, i'll do me best to fullfill that request next time..hehehe

So just to summarize.
I think that doing this exercise has proven four or five great things for RG...

1b) The first is that working out those chords has not been an easy thing to do. It's been a great ear training for me and I'm sure for phil as well . But as i have said earlier, i do not think that without RG even in chords mode (and even with its current limitations) i couldn't have ever worked this song out - with or without a real guitar handy. Nor, could have i worked it out using Virtual Guitarist as a matter of fact (these plugs are even far more limited as chord variations are concerned).

2b) There are chord limitations in RG while in chord mode. Doing this has proven more so. Further work needs doing i guess, but I'm sure we cannot ask for it now - or at least all in one go. These limitations seem to be at the level of:
-No variation of # strings in real-ime (unless i do not know what i'm doing, which could well be) with a few programmable CC changes/buttons so as to switch these in a controller keoyboard, etc.
-choosing which strings like, first three or last three?
-Not enough chord inversions/variations
-Not enough chords available.
-No chords with open strings yet.
Again, i repeat, this may not be any news (or to no surprise) and/or something which can be hoped for immediately (ater all we are still officially in version 1.5, an infant ) but it is certainly there.

3b) More extreme chords CAN be achieved in solo mode (while still strumming them up-down-mute), but may mean a lot more programming/sequencing. Perhaps with the introduction of the patterns mode this will be indeed far easier to do, but still not as easy as being able to choose what chords one does exactly need note for note, string for string, etc. like you can do in the solo mode.

4b) Some chords RG produces seem to be formed or derived using the algorithm used in the bass&pick & bass&chord... which may produce unrealistic or very advanced/hard tendon stretcher chords hardly impossible for a guitar player to strike with one single guitar?

5b) We need better smileys Ok, ok, ok, don't kill me on this one, only joking


SERGEY, i think that this may understandably be of no news whatsoever to you and your team, correct? But at least now you can see what i meant with the so called chord "problems/matching" i was having exactly. In the same way you can slo understand as to why i was saying that maybe for flamenco/latin style the RG still needs much further improvement - although of course at this stage it is a very unfair comment to say from my part . I will leave the two song files up on that website for a few more days just in case you feel you will be able to gain something new from doing any of this?

Phil, i will get back to you on those chords you have managed to work out a little later this evening (GMT).

Many thanks to all of you, and especially Phil, for taking all this time to follow this conversation through and for testing my so-called RG chord-matching problem. I truly appreciate this.
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[Landphil]

deesto,

MIDI CC#3 controls the # of strings in chord mode. I just set a slider up to send CC#3, and it works great! I need to study the MIDI implementation chart and start using it! Looks like they included a CC# for everything!

Be back after a shower and that after-work glass of wine! (or 3!)

[deesto]

phil those chords 46-49 where spot on mate. You must have also worked very hard at obtaining these!!!! my gawd.

aha! there is a controller i missed out then... maybe i can assign it to buttons like i did with the modes. next would be the possibility to choose which strings from top or from bottom or which ones in particular without having to swtich to the patterns mode.

and yer back after yer 20hr. nap too

by the way so far this is the longest thread of the forum mesethinks at 36/37 posts and counting... what's all this noise i'm making, huh?
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[Landphil]

Yup! We've strung this thread out to be a record breaker in the RG forum! A distant 2nd is the electric guitar thread. Somebody was going to do it eventually, so it might as well be us!

[deesto]

Yah.... and they are far from closing in to this thread #

[deesto]

ok, just a quick update...

the button presses like 1 for one string chords, 2 for 2 string chords, 3 for 3 stringed chords, etc, worked with my keyboard, pretty cool. but i still wish there would be the posibility or a method to choose which 3 strings i want the plugin to touch when i depress the button 3 in my keyboard, or which 4 out of the 6 strings is to play RG when i press button four on my keyboard etc. At the very least i would like to see an option to be able to choose which strings are to be played whether from top to bottom, or from bottom to top.

The other update is the intro of that song goes:

Gbm, D, Bm6, Db7sus4, Db, Gbm, D, Bm6/7, Gb7sus4

but this should instead be:

Gbm, D, Bm6, Db7sus4, Db, Gbm, D, Bm6/7, Db7(add#9)

and then back to Gbm etc.

so you will note the last chord's changed for a more suitable one.

I am going to take my webpage down now. I think we have fullfilled the purpose of this threat to a greater extent that what i was ever imagining it would be .

Chamo!
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