Sergey - Purely Technical Support Question, Please Help.

[Sergey_MusicLab]

deesto,

Good questions about the guitar chords/voicings used in RealGuitar.

1. As you can see RG constructs chords being used both for strumming and bass picking. That's why any chord should have the root note and Bass II note in the lower voices to perform bass&chord and bass&pick techniques. That's impossible for the real guitarist to play root note for every of 26 chord types in 4 positions used in RG. So that is the main reason for constructing some chords in RG that can't be fingered by one guitar player on the real guitar.

2. RG has no prerecorded chord shapes. All the chords are constructed in realtime using a very complex algorithm which is the subject of our patent.

3. Any chord type can be played on the real guitar in various voicings/fingerings which depends on the player's knowledge , experience, and music style performed. So we tried to develope such a chord constructing algorithm that can match common chord shapes being used in many styles. That's not the perfect approach but otherwise we should suggest a dosen of additional parameters (in terms difficult for understanding) for the user to give him the possibility to control chord voicing styles. We have these in the RG engine but now hidden for future use, if necessary.

4. You can get various voicings for some 7th and m7 chords by using one-finger technique (ex: try Gm7, or F#m7 in the I position by playing root note+black+white key lower, or G7 by playing root+white key lower, etc..)

Regards,
Sergey
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MusicLab Support.

[Landphil]

Hallo, deesto!

Interesting point regarding the "green dots" on the frets. That Db7sus4
is a real tendon stretcher, isn't it? One of my guitar playing friends said, upon first seeing RG... "Great! Now I can see the chord inversions that you would like me to play!" Boy, is he in for a suprise!
After reading your post, I picked up the guitar and tried playing some of the chord positions. Standard keys are pretty normal, but those flats and sharps are a real biach!

But, no matter. Most of the time when I write a song in a flat or sharp key, it's a bit taxing on the guitarist to get the full body chords that I'd like to hear without alternate tunings. If I write a song in a "black" key, I'll usually get the song structure down, then pick up a guitar and see what it is I'm getting ready to ask the guitar player to do. Db, Eb, G#, etc. are usually more difficult, so I'll transpose the key to the nearest "natural" key to accommodate the guitarist. Then, if the song HAS to have that resonance that only Eb can provide, or if the vocalist needs that key to stay within their range, we detune the guitar before tracking.

Good call on the green dots. I never really paid much attention to them before tonight!

As for me and the music I do alone, I play whatever sounds good to me at the time. If someone else wants to play it, it's up to them to figure it out!

And on a last note. . . sometimes I feel that emulating real instruments on a keyboard is a lot like drawing charactures of people. You almost have to exaggerate certain features to achieve a reasonable likeness.

Mucho Happy Music!

Phil

[Landphil]

Sorry for all the excessive quote marks.

Someday I may "actually" learn "proper" punctuation, along with "proper" spelling!

[Landphil]

Not to mention "proper" use of emoticons!

[deesto]

Hi Sergey,

Thank you soo much for replying! I'm glad i was able to bring up a topic of interest.

Thank you Landphil too! Landphil, you did exactly what i wanted someone to try for me, to see if a real person could ever play these chords RG is constructing on a real guitar. Mmm... so a biatch, huh? I guess not so realistic then? What do you reckon?

Anyhow, Sergey, first of all understand that i'm by no means trying to be peddantic here. I'm only wishing for RG to be as realistic as possible for next generations of the software, especially if something may have been possibly overlooked ever.

So i remain with some questions from your reply, which may help me understand RG and its so complex but still wonderful behaviour better:

1) I understand what you mean about that bass chord and picked modes. It makes perfect sense about that algorithm. But what i can't figure out is why you need to use the same working "model/algorithm" as in the bass&pick and the bass note&chord modes to construct strummed chords if this may not be that applicable or realistic for this particular chords mode? Or perhaps i misunderstood what you meant?

2) Of course the patent and the way RG works is soo good already.

3) This also makes perfect sense. However it doesn't seem to encopass the latin/brazilian and flamenco styles too well then (well, at least with this first version of RG ) It can (and I can) do a lot already with the bass&pick but it seems not enough for matching a song in any of those music styles...? Maybe in future updates we may be able to get into that secret hidden mode as an option?

4) Yup the voicings suggestions are indeed helpful, something i had overlooked for sure... however i still can not get a slow strummed Gbm7 chord with Gb, A, Db & E notes only in the chords mode with kbd enabled, which is used very much in latin or spanish mellow ballads it seems.

Actually, if it may help to explain better what i mean i wouldn't mind posting you the song in question i'm trying to work out...?

Of course, understand I'm not trying whatsoever to match the player's exact performance, but rather, instead to work out the closest musical chords (or fingering/tone) to what they play where applicable and using only one RG instance. Which is where i have encountered difficulty ina few of the chords, as i was saying in my previous post. When they perform any sort of solo modes i switch accordingly on my sequencer.

Landphil, I think your suggestion of transposing or detuning the guitar etc. is good. However, i do not think this may be the case for this song... it seems the tone of the guitar seem to match to that of RG using those chords. Of course, i'm not a guitar player really, so i have no means to be absolutley certain... hence my suggestion of posting you the song if you think this may be of any help?

Anyhow, hopefully i get some wonderful reponses from you both again.

Merci,

Ciau!
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[deesto]

Hello again!

I have just jeard the demo for RG 1.5...

So, slide guitar, huh? owwwwhhhh... we're getting smart...

Excellent, excellent, excellent! What a feature! More fun and great music making coming ahead i can see!

A round of applause to you at music lab.

Ciau!

(patiently waiting for your next responses on the above)
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[Landphil]

Hello, deesto!

I wouldn't mind hearing the song you're speaking of so I could understand the complexity of what you're trying to achieve.

However, I would like to hear Sergey's opinion of posting example songs. I know that some other sites, like KVR and the Line6 POD forum, etc. allow such, but downloadable links of copyright protected music can somtimes become a sticky situation, especially here in the States.

Sergey, what's your position on this? Is perhaps a link to a short clip acceptable? And if we happen to pull off an exellent rendition of a popular song using Real Guitar, for example; "Classical Gas", by Mason Williams, would it be acceptable to link our RG version in this forum?

You're the boss! What can we link and what shouldn't we link?

Go ahead. . .make that executive decision! Feel the power!

Phil

[Sergey_MusicLab]

Landphil,

Great idea to post links for example songs here in the forum.
Be sure we'll certainly realize it as soon as possible.

The songs you've posted with the detailed description about how you worked with RealGuitar are of much help for other not so experienced users.

I think anyone could share his experience and tips and tricks for RG here also.

[deesto]

landphil,

Glad there is an interest! That makes me soo happy.

Well you have taken a step ahead of me . That was going to be my next question, actually. Because I'm concerned that this is a copywrited work indeed. Should I e-mail it instead? Share it in the gnutela network, e.g.?

The other question o suggestion i may have is as to whether or how should i post the midi file (or preferably logic audio songfile) so you can see what i'm trying to achieve exactly against the current song.

As I said I'm only trying to work out the chord structure or if you like the fingering/fretting to achieve the desired notes/chords that will resemble the to the exact original chords in the song. If you like as a way to see whether it is possible to recreate at least the same notes in the chords they use, whether strummed or non-strummed, using RG. Of course, I'm not trying to match the exact performance or even too much the rythm. Just enough so i can strum along or so that i can show to another guitar player what those chords are and how they are played.

Anyhow. I will wait for your suggestions so i could get this files across to you and you can see what i mean then.

till then, ciau!
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[deesto]

ok, onto something a bit different while i wait for all your comments...

i have just updated to RG1.5
I'm glad that all of the problems i mentioned earlier, such as the hold & panic issues have been definetly nailed down. grand job!

I think that with the midi pattern library i might be able to solve a little of the problem i was having with the song... basically by using the solo mode in patern mode and constructing my own very chords with my own very notes and then using the strum trigger keys (but only those which are placed from C-2 to C0) in THAT mode. Still, that involves programming whereas what i wanted to do is play along in real time to the song. This is because the range of my keyboard goes from cneg2 (c-2) to c3 when transposed a couple of octaves down... i.e. basically i do not have enough keyboard range so as to be able to play all the chords/notes i need while using the special patern repeat keys. Maybe it is something i need to live with? Note that i have posed this as a question, as there maybe is scope for improvement to the program, or for me to correct something i may be doing wrong, or that I have overlooked, who knows?

Still, it would be worth to check what you reckon against the real song.

the other thing is: i heard that slide guitar sample/demo... but how was it done? I have downloaded the PC update for RG1.5 but i do not have it as a sound sample patch to select it among the nylon, steel, etc.?


the other thing. i never updated my RAM, but i did manage to get it working in LA fairly reasonably in the end. also the problem i had while running it in the desktop mode got corrected...

how?

very simple.

You know the directx sound tab. well it has the habit of puting it self back to NO acceleration. whereas with my configuration it should be set to all the way full. if not, it will always sound stuttery.

Also these are the sound settings i have to use within or outside logic audio (see further below). of course from time to time, it switches back to stutery behaviour probably caused by the low ram as per usual... but i definetly know what else causes this swtich to happen as well... moving the windows, objects, icons, etc. in the screen.. so maybe it is to do/realted with the display that aslo needs ram at the same time or something...?

Also, within LA it seems that having the option on for Larger Process buffer & larger disk buffer makes matters only worse. So I ticked them offin the end.

ok, onto the settings:

Standalone program:

Buffer size: 16ms
streaming: Directsound
Primary Sound Driver
44100
16-PCM

or

streaming: kernel streaming
with 48000 (important; it cannot initialise audio driver at 44100 for some bizarre reason)
and 5-10ms

seems that with kernel streaming is able to have a lower delay/latency before stuttering occurs, which kinda makes sense.

LA settings:
EASI Directsound
Output: Primary Sound Driver
Input: SigmaTel Audio
BufferSize: 1000-2000
with the 1000 buzzer size, this may invoke the stutering to happen much sooner within LA. also if running more than one instance/track of the same RG sample patch. also makes kinda sense.

the funny thing is that when this suddenly happens (the stutering) while LA is running... if you stop it, then press play again the stutering "cures" itself for another while. why?

of course now that you have released the mac RG version i will possibly not need to worry about this hassle anymore; my powerbook has 1GB


Cheers.
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[Landphil]

Good to hear thet you're getting some of your system bugs worked out. Sometimes all the ASIO, DirectX, buffer this and driver that can be a real pain! Never have used LA, so I can't say much about the stuttering. I'm still a bit old fashioned. . . I sequence with an external sequencer, load my VSTi's up in a host (Chainer), and record to a Mackie HDR24/96 thru my mixing console. Some people are thankful that they never need to hassle with the cables and hardware since DAW's have become affordable, but I still like all the clutter and knobs with the hardware!

That slide guitar isn't a new sound set . . . it's just some very clever use of the pitch and mod wheels on one of the existing guitars. . (not quite sure which one, will have to study). It wouldnt suprise me if the velocity switch FX wasn't set to "bend" on some of the parts as well.

Do you have a web host where you can post a clip of the song? It doesn't need to be the whole song, just the parts you feel are important to the piece. . . like 1 verse or chorus.

Just got in from work. I need a shower and a bigass glass-0-wine! My day job's gonna be the end of me yet!

'Till later . . . .
Phil

[deesto]

landphil,

take it easy, kick off yer shoes, that's right put your feet up! have a glass of wine and enjoy the nice sounds of the melody...

so mmmm... a webhost.. i don't think i do.

can you reccomend one that maybe free to subscribe to?

you are right parts of the song will do. this way i won't violate much in terms of copyright. Besides i can take it down once you get the files... if you do not have LA, then i can always export the LA songfile as a standard midi, the only pity is i can not put markers in this to show you where exactly i'm having the chord/notes issue. I'm still finishing up with finding those chords in one section of the song... so hopefully i'm there by the time i receive your suggestion of a webhost and by the time i subscribe to it. etc.

about the slide guitar, yes, i think the bend, slide, pitch bend thing is what makes it... you are right. I just thought they had introduced a slide chords guitar or something more fancy/clever. guess not. I just heard the demo again, and indeed those chords are simple RG chords (not sliding chords from one to the next as I would like ). Although with the solo mode and using multiple notes in that mode to form a chord with all the controller added on-top is fairly convincing indeed.

l8r.
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[deesto]

Mmm, just had another re-read at my previous post while searching to see if landphil had managed to find a little bit of time to reply back to my previous post yet...

In doing so i realised something as to the "convingcing" thing about the slide guitar or not... I think that what could be missing the most in RG to fully make it even more convincing are those noises of the finger slider or the metal/glass tube slider going across the frets? As I'm not a guitar player myself, as I have stated many times in the past, I'm asking you this; so: am i right in saying what i have just said and does it make sense?
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[Landphil]

Ahhhh...that was a nice long 20hr nap!

About hosting, I know little to nothing, but I can share some threads that I found on the subject from Cubase.net and KVR.

The first place to check is your own internet provider. Some offer a very limited space for free. I'm on a cable connection, and I'm allowed a "personal webspace" of 30MB with 15MB bandwidth per month. Not much . . . a 5MB mp3 downloaded 3 times in 1 month would use all of my allowed bandwidth.

Read through these threads, and you'll get an idea of what some people are using and what they think about it. I'm sure there's a lot more info on all the other music sites out there . . . you'll just have to research a little . . . . . . .

Cubase thread 1
Cubase thread 2
Cubase thread 3
Cubase thread 4


KVR thread 1
KVR thread 2
KVR thread 3

I can't verify anything said in these threads, but hopefully they'll help in some way. The first link to an mp3 I ever did was back in May with the short RG demo in another thread, and it took me a good 4 hours to get it right. My HTML skills are preschool level now, but I'm trying to learn!

Perhaps another fine RG user may have some host suggestions?

Well, it's Saturday night! Time to kill the internet and jam a little!

I'll check back later . . . . .

P.S. Cubase.net can be a bit slow loading somtimes.

Phil

[Guest]

hi phil, hi sergey!

phil, i kinda followed your suggestion to use my own web space that my internet provider supplies... well i have used geocities in the end, wich is supposed to be it.

i dunno why there is a limitation as it is supposed to be part of yahoo/BT where i have a paying account, 2gb of space in e-mail, etc... but there is. The limitation is this: You cannot download the files i have posted up there more than once within the same one hour. It blocks itself if you do so because you exceed the data transfer allowance that geocities provides.

Anyhow, i think this is good. like this you will be able to download the mp3 and the general midi file i have posted and nobody else will be able to after you do so until past another hour. I suppose it is nice cus the full song is there posted, therefore copyright issues etc, so it's good at least there is a limit on the amount you can download per hour.

bullshit apart, the address you need is this. Only two links to click on there,

http://uk.geocities.com/deesto@btopenworld.com/index.html


so the two links refer to the 2 files:

try2.mp3
try1.mid

if you import the try1.mid into your sequencer it should sync perfectly with the try2.mp3 songfile once you convert this latter file into a wav or aiff file, provided your sequencer (like my version of logic audio doesn't) does not allow you to have an mp3 file in the timeline.

the song is at 80bpm (tempo). i suggest you have no automatic quantising enabled.

if you import the .mid file into your sequencer you will see it split into 6 tracks.

1) the first track should be a grand piano GM type of sound.
this will be some lead vox parts, some piano parts and some chorus merged sections i have tried to work out every now and again from the song. Of course, this is not the important bit, it'scoming a little later

2) second track is also a very rough guide: a drum kit going along the sequence. you can, and should probably mute this track unless you want to hear my bad in real-time playing of the drum kit via midi and hurt your ears therefore

3) this is where the fun begins. assign this midi track to a RG nylon picked with default chorus FX on. it should be in CHORDS KBD mode and 6 strings. Slow strum on lower velocities @ 123 (max step time). #5 pattern, Slowest strum time and max release time general settings reccomended.

4) second RG instance. Same as above but #2 pattern CHORDS but this time it should be set to IV (instead of kbd). 6 strings, slow strum on velocity @128. shortest strum time.

as you can see all the above are only a chords section all the way through, just as i need and intended them to be, to show a guitar player which ones are those and how to play them,

and you will note when RG chords do not seem to match exactly the chords sound of the song at some point. In another msg i will list which ones those are. But in theory all these are more or less musically correct vs. the original song, i have tried many alternatives to those i'm playing to see if i could close match them even better, but i just seem to be unable to do so, perhaps because RG does not have enough chord inversions or forms, or perhaps because i ain;t playing them right, or because i have no worked them out properly?

5) track 5 is just a suporting 3rd RG instance in SOLO mode.

6) the 4th track is a 4th supporting RG instance i chords/kbd mode

any other tracks after these if there are any should be ignored but can be assigned to the same RG plugin.

See how you get on...

i will shortly post a list of the chords i find there is the most trouble with. of course the chorus section i think it is quite faultess as it is, though there might be room for improvement. it's only the breaks,bridges that type of thing that i encountered the most trouble with or the most "suspended" in the air type of sounding chords. Gbm7 for example... remember what i was saying about Gb A Db, E?