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DannyDep
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: Real Riff Heaven and how to get there
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I know that the Video Tutorial that comes with the RG/RS bundle is for RG.
But does it show detailed examples of how a keyboard player (especially one that does not play guitar) can play some of the riffs in the demos?
For example, I could basically get the feel of the playing and strumming in the RealStrat_RockRiff_Demo.
But when I went into the MIDI and saw that there were less notes than I actually thought there were in that beginning riff,
I asked myself how can I play that?
So I ask, how can we pull off those riffs, like at the beginning and end of that demo, without some kind of teaching or training aid?
Is there anything out there that might help me out?
Thx. |
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DannyDep
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:14 am Post subject:
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OK. Let me try to rephrase the question.
Are the 19 video clips on the Basic Tutorial Video meant to be educational in that they actually show what one needs to do in order to play what is on the videos or
are they simply video clips of actual performances much like the Demo videos on the
Listen page? |
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Steve
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 109
Location: S.E. MICHIGAN
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:
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Not being a guitar (or even keyboard) player, I have the same problem of playing realistic sounding guitar parts. Doing it via MIDI editing takes forever. To get an idea of how to do it, I studied the MIDI files Sergey posted. See the Sticky in the RealStrat forum
http://www.musiclab.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2093 |
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DannyDep
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:59 am Post subject:
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| Steve wrote: | Not being a guitar (or even keyboard) player, I have the same problem of playing realistic sounding guitar parts. Doing it via MIDI editing takes forever. To get an idea of how to do it, I studied the MIDI files Sergey posted. See the Sticky in the RealStrat forum
http://www.musiclab.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2093 |
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply.
I guess it wasn't clear from my original post as I did mention looking at the MIDI.
Yes, I did download the files associated with that demo and it was certainly helpful in seeing the MIDI as well as the settings from the pic that was produced from the piece.
Not being a guitar player as well, I guess what I am looking for is a tutorial that will enable me to see what playing techniques are involved in getting an authentic sound from the SW.
I realize it's going to take lots of practice and I am willing to put in the time.
The question is where can I constructively start that process?
Let me make another analogy.
When I was young"er"  I always wanted to play a B3 organ and play it like my favorite player at the time, Richard "Groove" Holmes.
This is going back way in the pre-digital days. Holmes made a particular song, "Misty" famous again on a 45 vinyl.
Well I took that 45 and played it to death at 33 speed until I found out how he was doing those riffs on that keyboard.
So again my question is how can "I" find a way to play guitar riffs from this SW?
It's obvious that it is possible for others to do.
I find it hard to control the Mod Wheel controller to get authentic bends.
Can one, for instance, use any of the settings to mimic bends instead of using the Mod Wheel?
thx,
ciao, Dan |
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Steve
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 109
Location: S.E. MICHIGAN
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject:
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{{Can one, for instance, use any of the settings to mimic bends instead of using the Mod Wheel? }}
Bend and reverse bend is available via velocity switch. |
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Chamelion
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:37 am Post subject:
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| DannyDep wrote: |
When I was young"er" I always wanted to play a B3 organ and play it like my favorite player at the time, Richard "Groove" Holmes.
This is going back way in the pre-digital days. Holmes made a particular song, "Misty" famous again on a 45 vinyl.
Well I took that 45 and played it to death at 33 speed until I found out how he was doing those riffs on that keyboard. |
Hi Dan,
If I understand you correctly, if you're looking for a practical way to replicate the old slowing down the vinyl from 45 to 33 technique to analyze those organ riffs, I think your best route to Riff Heaven is going to set you back about $45, and answers to the name of The Amazing Slow Downer:
Dang! After all that build-up, I just checked and it only works on Mac - but for all I know you might use a Mac. Or maybe there's a PC equivalent. Anyway, it's a handy little piece of shareware, and you can check it out here:
Cheers,
Geoff
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Walt Kelly |
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Steve
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 109
Location: S.E. MICHIGAN
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:23 am Post subject:
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| Don't most sequencer today have a 'time stretch' function for things like this? And those don't even affect pitch. |
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Chamelion
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:
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| Steve wrote: | | Don't most sequencer today have a 'time stretch' function for things like this? And those don't even affect pitch. |
Time-stretch and pitch change Midi? Of course.
But try that with audio? Not without shelling out big bucks for something like Cubase or Digital Performer - And being a Mac user, I'm guessing about Cubase.
Try loading an mp3 or wav file into your average sequencer, and then try to manipulate pitch and/or tempo in any meaningful way, and I wish you the best of luck. Think about it. If most sequencers could time-stretch and pitch-change audio (as opposed to midi), why would the folks at Roni Music invest all that time and effort to create something like the Amazing Slow Downer? I've often used it, and it's a handy little app to have in your box of tricks.
Cheers,
G
_________________
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"
Walt Kelly |
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Steve
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 109
Location: S.E. MICHIGAN
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject:
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| Chamelion wrote: | | Steve wrote: | | Don't most sequencer today have a 'time stretch' function for things like this? And those don't even affect pitch. |
Time-stretch and pitch change Midi? Of course.
But try that with audio? Not without shelling out big bucks for something like Cubase or Digital Performer - And being a Mac user, I'm guessing about Cubase.
Try loading an mp3 or wav file into your average sequencer, and then try to manipulate pitch and/or tempo in any meaningful way, and I wish you the best of luck. Think about it. If most sequencers could time-stretch and pitch-change audio (as opposed to midi), why would the folks at Roni Music invest all that time and effort to create something like the Amazing Slow Downer? I've often used it, and it's a handy little app to have in your box of tricks.
Cheers,
G |
I did mean audio. And I was referring to sequencers like Sonar (it has two decent time stretch methods), Cubase, Digital Performer, etc. But then I consider them your 'average sequencer'. I would assume anyone using RG would have one of those. Granted, any slower than ~ 90% of the original tempo may cause unwanted artifacts unsuitable for a final mix, but you can get even slower with good enough quality to learn tough licks. |
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Chamelion
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject:
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Hey Steve, It wasn't my intention to get into a s**t fight here, just to make the point that there is at least one inexpensive, specialized product out there that will run rings around the built-in audio time-stretch/pitch feature set of most, if not all, of the sequencers currently available in terms of how far you can go while maintaining a workable sound quality for analysis purposes. For my money, nothing beats Melodyne for all that top-quality audio tempo/pitch stuff, but the one I recommended will absolutely enable you to go way beyond +/-90% for purposes of analysis - which is its purpose in life.
G
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Walt Kelly |
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DannyDep
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject:
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| Chamelion wrote: | .............
Hi Dan,
If I understand you correctly, if you're looking for a practical way to replicate the old slowing down the vinyl from 45 to 33 technique to analyze those organ riffs, .............
Cheers,
Geoff |
Hi Geoff,
Not really. But I think that any MAC users will appreciate the info on ASD.
If I could get back to my topic at hand,
what I'm trying to get at is that even when one plays the RealStrat_RockRiff_Demo and examines the MIDI file and .Jpg associated with the demo,
it is very difficult to reproduce the demo.
Let me first say that when I opened up the video for the first time and saw the exact same keyboard that I have, I thought, "this is going to be easy to duplicate...".
I'm finding it not to be so easy.
As an example, when Sergey is using the joystick, to modulate the bend (or whatever else he is doing on the demo)
one can not see exactly how much he is actually moving it and in what direction.
As I mentioned, I'm not a guitar player so just about everything is new to me.
I think it would be great if Sergey could provide separate tutorial demo videos on each of the major guitar articulations and effects that can be created with MLs products.
It's fantastic to see and hear what can be done with RG/RS. 
But I want to be able to do them myself. 
That's why I purchased the products.
I hope that he feels it would be worth his while.
I understand the importance of demos for the marketing and sales of products.
And what better to have YouTube to serve as a free provider of these products.
But I hope that perhaps other Users, especially new and prospective ones can convince Sergey that he should at least think about my suggestion. |
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Steve
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 109
Location: S.E. MICHIGAN
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject:
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| DannyDep wrote: |
As an example, when Sergey is using the joystick, to modulate the bend (or whatever else he is doing on the demo)
one can not see exactly how much he is actually moving it and in what direction.
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Go to this page and you can download the actual MIDI data
http://www.musiclab.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2093 |
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DannyDep
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject:
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| Steve wrote: | | DannyDep wrote: |
As an example, when Sergey is using the joystick, to modulate the bend (or whatever else he is doing on the demo)
one can not see exactly how much he is actually moving it and in what direction.
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Go to this page and you can download the actual MIDI data
http://www.musiclab.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2093 |
Hi Steve,
I'm sure you're trying to be helpful,
but I have mentioned that I did look at the MIDI (even in the original Post) several times already.
I was hoping to hear from someone from ML on any possible suggestions.
thx,
ciao, Dan |
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Sergey_MusicLab
Moderator
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 2070
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject:
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Dan,
Video gives you the main concept about how both hands are working.
MIDI allows to slow down the material to get into details.
The riff I recorded on video is not easy to perform, I agree. But be sure I would never play it on guitar in ages  (I don't play guitar at all and have no time to practice, so I made that on keyboards with much pleasure).
About Riff itself:
1. Try to produce the first basic element (on G) using right hand for full sound (higher velocity) and left hand for BridgeMute sound (pressing repeat key with lower velocity).
If you manage to get it sound correct - than go further for full riff
2. If you have joystick controller similar my Korg (Pitch Bender for right/left, Modulation for up) you can easily emulate my bending tecnique: all-notes-bend with P.B. , and lower note bend with Modulation assigned to MonoBend. That needs time of course, but be sure this kind of technique demands years of training on real guitar
Note, RealStrat is really a musical instrument, and it needs training course (much shorter for keyboad player, though)
Regards,
Sergey
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